Guitar Forums

Go Back   Guitar Forums > The Gear > Guitars

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-07-2018, 11:03 PM   #141
old geezer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 449
old geezer Just getting started
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle View Post
So the claim is that Alder is louder than Ash? Or rather that one piece of wood was louder than a second piece of wood. Or rather that with a sample size of two pieces of wood, they weren't identical? Or that a microphone handled the data differently than a magnetic pickup?
Well if one piece of wood was louder than a second piece of wood. Then theres a problem right there, Because woods cant vary remember
old geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 11:03 PM   #142
Sixstringplayer
Senior Member
 
Sixstringplayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: In your mind
Posts: 9,804
Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn Sixstringplayer is like a door knob: everybody gets a turn
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle View Post
Haha...Fantastic! Good is great and better is best! I know what I hear and facts be damned! We don't know everything and one day we are going to find out that our tone comes from the wood!
Oh, I am sure you're not interested in any facts unless they somehow support your position. Thank you for taking the post out of context though.
Sixstringplayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 11:45 PM   #143
KamaK
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: East Coast
Posts: 197
KamaK Just getting started
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle View Post
Would you care to describe what you are looking at and its significance?
Sure, even though you read the report in it's entirety.


There are two lines. One is Ash, one is Alder. Identical setup (same hardware and strings). The delta between the two colored lines is caused by the tonewood. In some frequencies. one is louder than another. In others, it is quieter. Deviations >3db are generally accepted as audible.

I disagree with the methodology because he doesn't include a zero-interference baseline (strings and pickups on decoupled unresonant masses), and uses a mic for strings+wood instead of a piezoelectric sensor to isolate the wood. If we had those two things, we could correlate the constructive/destructive interference of the body through the bridge/nut.

But that's all beside the point, because there's a delta. We know what's happening, and we have a theory as to why it's happening. In terms of whether tonewood matters, we have our answer. Whether the delta is audible or not? >3db = Yes

Rephrased: A person does not need to know how to spell diarrhea in order to know that they have it.

Last edited by KamaK; 01-07-2018 at 11:53 PM.
KamaK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 11:52 PM   #144
Seattle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,027
Seattle Just getting started Seattle Just getting started
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by old geezer View Post
Well if one piece of wood was louder than a second piece of wood. Then theres a problem right there, Because woods cant vary remember
Wood can vary. Maple can vary so how can maple be bright if it can vary?

It's true, it's not effecting an electric guitar. The microphone is the biggest change in that test, not the wood.

Some of the peaks aren't even lined up with the other peaks. The whole test is sloppy and the interpretation is misguided.

Testing two guitars and being surprised that they aren't exactly the same is silly.

Basically you are arguing that wood effects the tone but that it's so small an effect that you can't hear it. What is the point in that argument? No one one can pass a double blind trial and therefore it's not statistically significant.
Seattle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 11:58 PM   #145
Silimtao
Baaand
 
Silimtao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: here
Posts: 35,301
Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Sure, even though you read the report in it's entirety.


There are two lines. One is Ash, one is Alder. Identical setup (same hardware and strings). The delta between the two colored lines is caused by the tonewood. In some frequencies. one is louder than another. In others, it is quieter. Deviations >3db are generally accepted as audible.

I disagree with the methodology because he doesn't include a zero-interference baseline (strings and pickups on a decoupled unresonant mass), and uses a mic for strings+wood instead of a piezoelectric sensor to isolate the wood. If we had those two things, we could correlate the constructive/destructive interference of the body through the bridge/nut.

But that's all beside the point, because there's a delta. We know what's happening, and we have a theory as to why it's happening. In terms of whether tonewood matters, we have our answer. Whether the delta is audible or not? >3db = Yes

Rephrased: A person does not need to know how to spell diarrhea in order to know that they have it.
You disagree with the methodology, but agree with the conclusion with respect to acoustic properties, is that correct?

Then, do you agree with the final line of the paper? "These perceptible
variations however, appear to get lost when the volume of the amplified signal takes over."


If it's not a discernible difference, and the "violin tests" which have been done repeatedly that shows this, is it not a fair statement to say, "type of wood does not make any difference in the making a guitar, with respect to 'tone.' "
__________________
Instant Karma's gonna get you......

Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves. - Thoreau

Works of art make rules but rules do not make works of art. - Debussy.
Silimtao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 12:16 AM   #146
KamaK
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: East Coast
Posts: 197
KamaK Just getting started
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silimtao View Post
You disagree with the methodology, but agree with the conclusion with respect to acoustic properties, is that correct?
I disagree with both the methodology, and the conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silimtao View Post
Then, do you agree with the final line of the paper? "These perceptible
variations however, appear to get lost when the volume of the amplified signal takes over."
No. The student had data showing a >3db difference in the amplified signal (~6db in some bands) and dismissed them as inaudible. You can read/interperet a waveform graph, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silimtao View Post
If it's not a discernible difference, and the "violin tests" which have been done repeatedly that shows this, is it not a fair statement to say, "type of wood does not make any difference in the making a guitar, with respect to 'tone.' "
No. Chambered lute tests don't apply here, and have shown that there is indeed a perceivable difference. (source: Josh Parker, engineer, C.F. Martin Company)
KamaK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 12:47 AM   #147
Silimtao
Baaand
 
Silimtao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: here
Posts: 35,301
Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
I disagree with both the methodology, and the conclusions.



No. The student had data showing a >3db difference in the amplified signal (~6db in some bands) and dismissed them as inaudible. You can read/interperet a waveform graph, right?



No. Chambered lute tests don't apply here, and have shown that there is indeed a perceivable difference. (source: Josh Parker, engineer, C.F. Martin Company)
So you're dismissing the Sopher paper, is that correct?

Is the data flawed, or the interpretation of the data that is flawed?

If the interpretation is flawed, but the data is correct, is it fair to say you're reinterpreting the data?

I mentioned violin tests, you mentioned lutes, so I don't know what to make of that.

Lastly, can you tell the difference between woods when amplified or acoustically?

Sent from my KFAUWI using Tapatalk
__________________
Instant Karma's gonna get you......

Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves. - Thoreau

Works of art make rules but rules do not make works of art. - Debussy.
Silimtao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 12:56 AM   #148
Seattle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,027
Seattle Just getting started Seattle Just getting started
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixstringplayer View Post
Oh, I am sure you're not interested in any facts unless they somehow support your position. Thank you for taking the post out of context though.
I think you've got that backward. I have no horse in this race. If wood made a difference I'd be buying guitars with warm tone.
Seattle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 01:00 AM   #149
Seattle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,027
Seattle Just getting started Seattle Just getting started
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Sure, even though you read the report in it's entirety.


There are two lines. One is Ash, one is Alder. Identical setup (same hardware and strings). The delta between the two colored lines is caused by the tonewood. In some frequencies. one is louder than another. In others, it is quieter. Deviations >3db are generally accepted as audible.

I disagree with the methodology because he doesn't include a zero-interference baseline (strings and pickups on decoupled unresonant masses), and uses a mic for strings+wood instead of a piezoelectric sensor to isolate the wood. If we had those two things, we could correlate the constructive/destructive interference of the body through the bridge/nut.

But that's all beside the point, because there's a delta. We know what's happening, and we have a theory as to why it's happening. In terms of whether tonewood matters, we have our answer. Whether the delta is audible or not? >3db = Yes

Rephrased: A person does not need to know how to spell diarrhea in order to know that they have it.
They may have diarrhea and be mistaken as to its cause if they don't rely on evidence-based medical practices however.
Seattle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 01:47 AM   #150
Silimtao
Baaand
 
Silimtao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: here
Posts: 35,301
Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life Silimtao REALY needs to get a life
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
No. Chambered lute tests don't apply here, and have shown that there is indeed a perceivable difference. (source: Josh Parker, engineer, C.F. Martin Company)
I'm at a computer now, and looked up Parker. This is what he had to say:

>>Josh Parker, an engineer with the C.F. Martin Company of Nazereth, Pa., is playing a mahogany-based Martin D-18 and a rosewood based Martin D-28.

As Parker put it, "Tone is totally subjective, so we don't like to speak good versus bad just different."<< https://www.npr.org/2017/11/30/56706...the-difference

From the NPR article, after spectral analysis of mahogany, and rosewood: "The data in the top third of each graph is very similar, indicating both guitars exhibit similar brightness." Does this not fly in the face of traditional thought regarding tonewoods, that mahogany is "bright," and rosewood is "warm?"

So, you're using as a source who admittedly is stating what I, and many others have stated, that tone is totally subjective?

Is "subjective" not the opposite of, "objective?"

And, I'll ask again, can you hear the difference in different woods?
__________________
Instant Karma's gonna get you......

Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves. - Thoreau

Works of art make rules but rules do not make works of art. - Debussy.
Silimtao is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Guitar Competition | Piano Lessons