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Old 02-02-2017, 06:17 AM   #11
pauln
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Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
Hello paul, thank you very much for your detailed answer. We really appreciate it.

My questions;


Question 1)


Method #2

a) learn all major scale shapes and derive other scale shapes from it.
b) learn all scale shapes however be aware of what is derived from the major scale.

So what's the difference between method #3 and #2 b)? Both you learn independent scale shapes.


Question 2)

Method #4

As far as I know when you learn a phrase you must learn both
1) Note degrees of the notes in the phrase
2) The note degree of the base chord and its harmony

You said;
"This means not having to know names of keys chord types and functions"

That looks nonsense because
a) If you don't learn 1) when the scale changes those notes in the phrase sounds totally different.

b) If you don't learn the note degree of the base chord;

+ those notes in the phrase sounds totally different when different base chord is played.
+ those notes in the phrase sounds totally different when the key and the base chord changes.

If you don't learn the harmony of the base chord;
+ some notes in the phrase sound not right when different harmony is used on the base chord.

Am I right?
The difference between 2b and 3

2b is knowing two things

- the names of the notes on the finger board
- the formula for constructing a scale or chord (which is different from 2a which is constructing a scale as a deviation from the major scale)

3 is also knowing two things

- the names of the notes on the finger board
- learned pattern shapes for the different types of scales


So, for example (including 1 as well)

1 - I want the F minor scale. I pull directly from memory the notes of the F minor scale. I know all the note names on the guitar, so I play it directly.

2a - I want the F minor scale. I take the F major scale and flatten the 3, 6, and 7 scale degree, so A becomes Ab, D becomes Db, and E becomes Eb. This makes more sense when you see how it is used to figure out things like F sus4 add Flat 11, you have to know your major scales and use them as the basis for modification to the scale you want.

2b - I want the F minor scale. I skip thinking about F major and go to the construction of the natural minor scale. I know that the natural minor is made of steps W-H-W-W-H-W, so I start on an F (I know where the notes are), treat it as the tonic, and apply the steps.

3 - I want the F minor scale. I have learned some minor scale fingerings, with scale tonics starting on the low E, A, D, and G strings. I place the tonic of one of those fingerings on an F and simply follow the shape of the pattern I learned.

As to all the "That looks nonsense" questions; it may seem like nonsense if your way of understanding harmony is mechanical (patterns and shapes), or analytical (this scale, this interval, these notes go with this chord, function, harmony), or any other system that uses names and relationships rather than the phenomenological sound of the music itself. Hearing the music and grasping it by sound as music, by the way it sounds, is called audiation.

When I construct and apply a phrase I do not need to know the scale degrees, or what you call the base degree and harmony. Because I hear them, recognize them, hear how they fit.
Same with when the harmony changes, I hear and recognize that change and construct and apply another phrase that accommodates the changing harmony.

I recognize that the woodpecker on my tree is the same type as the one I saw before, without knowing the name of that type of woodpecker. I recognize the cashier at the store without knowing her name. I recognize my neighbors' car without know its make or model. You do not have to know the names of things in order to recognize them.
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Old 02-02-2017, 03:39 PM   #12
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Thank you very much all for input.
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:51 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Tony Done View Post
I'm a position player. I know all the pentatonic boxes and the keys they relate to, and I can add notes to make major, minor and blues scales, but I can't name the notes without thinking about it. It is basically your second option. I'm not at all sure that this is a good method, but it works for me because a scalar approach isn't the mainstay of my style.

I'm exactly this guy. I don't care much where the the notes are. Tell me a friggen key and I can go with that. The rest is hearing it. All those scales are intertwined with one another and that slapped me in the face when I started playing scales

I was playing a few weekends with my 11 yo nephew who is taking guitar lessons. He doesn't know the basic chords and the instructor is already hammering notes outa him. I realize tiny clusters of notes makes a chords. He was struggling to play because he was looking for notes. I hope eventually he'll hear the notes and know where he wants to go on the neck. I try not to teach him much because i don't want to break whatever wall hes built with the instructor. Guess if i were going to go into music school, yea I'd want to learn the notes, but I don't and I don't

I hope his instructor teaches him useful beginner stuff like tuning by ear, stringing and open chords. I think teaching a beginner notes is a little much but we all have our way I guess
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:05 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by PEAVEYUSA View Post
I'm exactly this guy. I don't care much where the the notes are. Tell me a friggen key and I can go with that. The rest is hearing it. All those scales are intertwined with one another and that slapped me in the face when I started playing scales

I was playing a few weekends with my 11 yo nephew who is taking guitar lessons. He doesn't know the basic chords and the instructor is already hammering notes outa him. I realize tiny clusters of notes makes a chords. He was struggling to play because he was looking for notes. I hope eventually he'll hear the notes and know where he wants to go on the neck. I try not to teach him much because i don't want to break whatever wall hes built with the instructor. Guess if i were going to go into music school, yea I'd want to learn the notes, but I don't and I don't

I hope his instructor teaches him useful beginner stuff like tuning by ear, stringing and open chords. I think teaching a beginner notes is a little much but we all have our way I guess
My daughter is learning piano and just yesterday he had her figuring out chords on the piano keyboard just given the name of the chord from a lead sheet. Then he described inversions.

On the piano, I can understand the approach your nephew's guitar teacher is taking. Piano has no movable shapes, so you have to talk about the notes and intervals. On the guitar, I think you get more quickly to point B when you talk in terms of chord shapes, identify in them which is the 1st, the 3rd, and the 5th and go from there. Learn how to move it around, how to alter it to get a minor, sus 2, sus 4, etc. Then you can talk about the theory of how all of this works, coming from the major scale, yada yada yada.

You must have a hard time holding yourself back . I think you are doing the right thing not interfering.
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:35 PM   #15
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Remember that one of the goals is to have it become natural or intuitive. When I first tried to learn all the different scales, I often got confused because a lot of them were similar with different minor variations. And I kept trying to memorize the different variations for scale 1 vs scale 2 vs. scale 3, etc, which became really cumbersome more than natural. I found it useful to only use only one scale and just memorize the root positions usually on the first treble string (G string). Once comfortable with the one scale, I would then move on to another common scale, and then learn the respective notes. In the twenty five years playing, I really primarily use one scale with respect to the major and pentatonic scales, and occasionally use two or three.
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:18 PM   #16
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I learned how to play 84 scales in about 30 minutes by reading a 1-page article and watching a 10-15 minute video that went with the article. (12 keys x 7 modes = 84 scales.)

Before I read this article, I had (1) a basic understanding of the structure/construction of major scales, (2) a similar understanding of natural minor scales, (3) a vague idea that harmonic and melodic minor scales existed, and (4) a pretty fair understanding of what modes are. I acquired my understanding of modes from two articles in Guitar One (G1) magazine, which is no longer in publication. One of the G1 articles is The Seven Major Modes by Troy Stetina, published in the October 1998 issue of G1. The other G1 article is Modal Mastery by Tom Kolb, published in the June 2000 issue of G1.

The article that taught me how to play 84 scales in about 30 minutes is Skeleton Key: Unlocking the Modes with the Mystical Major-Scale Diagram by Richard Lloyd. This article is one of twelve articles in a collection of 12 articles published on a DVD called The Ultimate Alchemical Guitarist: Fretboard Secrets Unlocked by Richard Lloyd. This DVD is sill available for purchase. (I have no connection with this DVD other than as a purchaser. So, I won't make any money if you buy it.)

I now use what I learned from the Skeleton Key article every time I'm working on learning a solo from a song's transcription.

As a bonus, another article on the DVD (The Dark Stuff: Learning the Modes in Order of Descending Brightness) teaches what order to put the modes in, from happiest sounding to darkest, and explains why. As another bonus, another article on the DVD (Box Cutters: Breaking Free with Pentatonic Trees) teaches how to navigate out of the five pentatonic boxes. The entire collection of articles on the DVD provides an excellent understanding of how to navigate the entire fretboard.

If this DVD can help me, a beginner, learn scales and how to navigate up and down the guitar's fretboard, it can help anyone. I'd highly recommend everyone try it out.
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Old 10-07-2017, 01:56 PM   #17
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1) I think there is a relation between concepts (words) and their existance in mind. Probably there are works on that case in psychology area.

I've had read "1984" novel by George Orwell. The tyrant government removes the words or substitutes the words with different meanings in the way he manipulates the people.

In the absence of words people alienate that concepts. (Freedom, mercy, love etc.)

I'm not sure if there is a correlation between this case and the music. But I suspect as well.



2) I've had watched a movie "Arrival (2016)"

It pointed difference language structures and the perception.

In human language you read a sentence from the beginning word by word till the end and get the meaning.

On the movie an alien race visits the world and their language phrases has no beginning or end.

It's like reading a sentence by reading all the words in the sentence in the same time.

It makes me think that kind of language is like music.

I mean learning

+ ear : the sounds & the feelings (the most important)
+ accidentals in the diatonic keys
+ chord spellings of major & chords
+ movable chord & interval shapes
+ pentatonic shapes

complement each other and improve you better and get you a better insight.
(Rather than choosing one or two of them and go on.)



3) Maybe there is a "organization" function of naming things in music.

For example chunking concept in psychology.

You learn phone numbers or id by groupings (organizing) the numbers. by 3-3-2-2 etc.

Or think about books Think how organization make you read and learn easier the book. (you're also taking notes while reading.)

Like titles and their subtitles.

Organizing the things in the "feeling, sounds" dimension looks hard. Since they are not tangible things.



Note! : Since I'm a learner I don't recommend any musical method approach!!!

Last edited by zanshin777; 10-07-2017 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:36 PM   #18
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When you added the 2 and the 6, you started playing the DORIAN mode. Study modes and you'll have more flexibility in improvising. Start looking for shapes and patterns and remember them. Then you can shift all over the place and not get lost.
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:34 PM   #19
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Cool The Guitar's Matrix & The Horizontal Keyboard



Think of it this way .

The keyboard is a horizontal linear grid from left to right of
scales repeating themselves in set group patterns . Works like
a typewrite keyboard more or less and reads like a book on
notation left to right .

A guitar fretboard is more like a matrix going left to right right
to left up/down/sideways/perpendicular like a crossword puzzle .

Dig deep young grasshopper dig deep .

EZ :

HR
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