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Old 10-03-2017, 09:22 PM   #1
zanshin777
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Default Deceptive Cadence Modulation

https://youtu.be/BThitegbIxk?t=1140 (Pinpointed Link)

Example

Key 1 : C Maj
Key 2 : A min

Chord Progression : C - F - G - Am - Bm7b5 - E7b9 - Am (With Am Chord modulation begins)

On the second key A minor Bm7b5 doesn't exist because II's quality is major.

?????
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Old 10-04-2017, 06:26 AM   #2
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Both A Natural Minor and A Harmonic Minor will give you a Bmin7b5 chord on the 2nd degree.

Bmin7b5 = B D F A

A Natural Minor = A B C D E F G A

A Harmonic Minor = A B C D E F G# A



That said, scales don't make the key. They are tools that can help establish a sense of key, but what makes a key is establishing a tonic. Bmin7b5 to E7b9 to Am establishes Am as a tonic even if there were no scales that matched those chords.


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Old 10-04-2017, 11:59 AM   #3
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It's shifting from A Natural Minor Scale to A Harmonic Minor Scale. They are scales not keys.

The definition of modulation is "Changing the Keys"

So it isn't a modulation???!!!
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:33 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
It's shifting from A Natural Minor Scale to A Harmonic Minor Scale. They are scales not keys.
Both those scales are part of the A minor key.

The best view is that the "minor key" is based on one scale, but with variable 6th and 7th degrees. The key of A minor will use F, F#, G and G# at different times. It makes little sense to consider it as three separate scales. (I know theory books often talk in that way, but it's misleading and unhelpful.)

So, "harmonic minor" is not a scale, it's a practice: the practice of raising the 7th degree in order to create a leading tone, and a major V chord (and diminished vii chord), thereby improving the "harmony". It happens to imply a scale, if you add that raised 7th to the other notes, but that implication is irrelevant.

Meanwhile, when it comes to melodies, the raised 7th means we get an augmented 2nd between b6 and 7 (F-G# in A minor), which - to the ears of baroque/classical composers anyway - sounded awkward especially when ascending. So - to improve melodies ascending to the tonic - the 6th degree is raised as well, so we get E-F#-G#-A. That alteration of notes is only necessary when going up to A, so when coming down we can revert to A-G-F-E (which resolves better to E). Hence the so-called "melodic minor scale", which is - again - not really a scale in its own tight, but the practice of altering natural minor in a specific way for a specific temporary purpose.

In fact, in practice, melodic minor alterations are sometimes used when descending (even in baroque music where these principles arose), and I know one pop example of an A-G#-F-E melodic descent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
The definition of modulation is "Changing the Keys"

So it isn't a modulation???!!!
Well, it is if Am is clearly established as a new key. (That sequence doesn't go far enough to confirm that.)

The E is V of A minor (key). (The 7 and b9 just underline that function, the fact it's a major chord is enough).
Bm7b5 is both the vii chord of C major and the ii chord of A minor, but much more commonly used as the latter.
So Bm7b5-E7b9 clearly sends the message that a modulation to A minor is approaching (because we've heard it so many times followed by Am, in the key of A minor).

Whether it turns out to be a true modulation depends on how long is spent on Am, and maybe whether the E7 is repeated at some point to help nail it down. If the Am turned out to be Am7 and went on to Dm7-G7 and back to C, then a modulation would not have taken place. Instead we'd say the E7 was a "secondary dominant", V/vi, briefly "tonicizing" the vi chord, Am.
...

BTW, this is not a "deceptive cadence". A deceptive cadence would be if the E7 was followed by F major, or something other than Am (or A). Rick Beato knows his stuff and I'm surprised he's made such a fundamental error in describing the modulation to A minor in that way. What he means is that Am (or Bm7b5) is a "pivot" chord - either one can have two functions. Am could be vi of C or i of A minor. Bm7b5 (as I said) could be vii of C or ii of A minor. We don't know which until we hit the E7, and then the Am. IOW, there is ambiguity here, but no deception. The E7 goes to A minor as we expect.
http://dictionary.onmusic.org/terms/...eptive_cadence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadenc...ive.29_cadence

Last edited by JonR; 10-06-2017 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:06 AM   #5
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Thank you very much for your detailed answers guys.
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:18 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR View Post

BTW, this is not a "deceptive cadence". A deceptive cadence would be if the E7 was followed by F major, or something other than Am (or A). Rick Beato knows his stuff and I'm surprised he's made such a fundamental error in describing the modulation to A minor in that way. What he means is that Am (or Bm7b5) is a "pivot" chord - either one can have two functions. Am could be vi of C or i of A minor. Bm7b5 (as I said) could be vii of C or ii of A minor. We don't know which until we hit the E7, and then the Am. IOW, there is ambiguity here, but no deception. The E7 goes to A minor as we expect.
http://dictionary.onmusic.org/terms/...eptive_cadence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadenc...ive.29_cadence


His "deceptive cadence" was the G moving to Am instead of resolving back to C. The minor ii V i was just added on to cement the change to the minor key.


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Old 10-08-2017, 05:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FwL View Post
His "deceptive cadence" was the G moving to Am instead of resolving back to C. The minor ii V i was just added on to cement the change to the minor key.
Gotcha. I missed the intro to that section. My apologies to Mt Beato (should he ever happen to visit us....)

It's still an unnecessary complication IMO to add the modulation to Am.
In any case, is it really (to quote him) "not a deceptive cadence unless it goes into that key"? Surely it only needs to go from G to the Am chord (instead of the expected C)?
When an E7 (in key of C) goes to F instead of Am, that's a deceptive cadence without the key of F needing to be established. Right?
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Old 10-11-2017, 07:18 AM   #8
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Thank you very much for the input
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Old 12-11-2017, 12:13 PM   #9
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Could you give me a deceptive cadence chord progression example please?
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Old 12-11-2017, 03:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
Could you give me a deceptive cadence chord progression example please?
I-V-VI for example? The dominant doesnt resolve to I, therefore its called a deceptive cadence. The ear expects V-I, but gets surprised instead.

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