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Old 12-11-2017, 05:12 PM   #11
zanshin777
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Sorry. I meant an example for "Deceptive Cadence Modulation" rather than "Deceptive Cadence"
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Old 12-13-2017, 10:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
Sorry. I meant an example for "Deceptive Cadence Modulation" rather than "Deceptive Cadence"
I guess that would be where the chord resolved to deceptively becomes a new tonic.

So, in key of C major, the standard deceptive cadence is when G goes to Am instead of C. For it to be a modulation, Am (or maybe A major) would need to be heard as a new key (not just vi), which could be established with its actual V chord (E).
E.g. C - F - G - Am - E - Am...

The other common deceptive cadence in C is E (or E7) going to F instead of Am.
Again, for it to be a modulation, you'd need to make it clear that F is not just IV, but a new I. You'd do that with other chords from F major, such as Bb, Gm or C7.
Eg., C - E - F - C7 - F...
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:49 AM   #13
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Thank you very much for your detailed answer JonR.

1) On your first example; What is the second key?

2) On your second example; What are the first and second keys?
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:39 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
Thank you very much for your detailed answer JonR.

1) On your first example; What is the second key?

2) On your second example; What are the first and second keys?
Im not entirely sure, but I think the keys would be C major and A minor in the first example and C major and F major in the second example.

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Old 12-15-2017, 03:57 PM   #15
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However in A minor scale E doesn't exist. It should have been Em (v).
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Old 12-17-2017, 07:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
Thank you very much for your detailed answer JonR.

1) On your first example; What is the second key?
A minor.
The V chord of A minor is E major (not E minor).
This is fundamental stuff! The minor "key" employs the "harmonic minor" V chord, which is how it differs from aeolian mode, or natural minor.
This is the conventional minor key V-i cadence, and you definitely need to understand this before you dig into modulation of any kind. Major and minor keys alike use a major V chord (usually a dom7, but it doesn't have to be).
Quote:
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2) On your second example; What are the first and second keys?
C major and F major.

In this case, the new F major key needs a dom7 V (C7), because a plain C would just sound like the I of the previous key. The sequence C - E - F wouldn't sound like the key had changed, even if you played C - E - F - C - F. Adding the 7th (Bb) to the second C makes it clearly the V of C.
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Old 12-17-2017, 07:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by zanshin777 View Post
However in A minor scale E doesn't exist. It should have been Em (v).
See above. And look up basic minor key theory.
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Old 12-26-2017, 05:59 PM   #18
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Ok v^ implies Harmonic Minor.

Thank you very much guys for your detailed answers.
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:51 PM   #19
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Just thinking a bit about what Jonr said. Something good to do would be to hear and recognize it, I think. I always try to play things out on the guitar to see how it sounds.

Try playing E minor followed by A minor. It sounds good, but try E major followed by A minor. Sounds better right? Put your own words on it, but I would say that the tension really resolves.

As you maybe know already the difference between major and minor is only the 3rd. E major contains G# whilst E minor contains G as the 3rd. So what does this mean in our context. Well, it means a lot. The G# in E major wants to resolve up to A right? So it works as a leading tone. The G in e minor does not want to lead up to A, and therefore E minor to A minor doesnt resolve as well.

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Old 12-27-2017, 01:05 PM   #20
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There's nothing wrong with Em to Am (v > i). It's a weaker cadence, but sometimes we want a weak cadence.

REM's 'Losing My Religion' is in A minor with Em as v. Sounds fine, and E major wouldn't be right at all. (The weakness of the cadence suits the confusion the lyrics are expressing.)

The major V chord in a minor key is simply a tradition in European tonal music, because the key convention demands the strong V-i cadence. It's still a sound we like, so it's still common. It's just not universal, nor is it always "better".
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